Vinyl L.P · Polydor Records · 817 238-1 Y-1.
1983 · U.S.A.
Liner notes:
These conversations with John and Yoko took place in the late summer and the fall of 1980. The background noises set the scenes: early morning talks in the Lennons’ kitchen with John running back and forth making tea; afternoon walks along Central Park West; late nights in the recording studio; evenings sitting at a sidewalk cafe in the rain. The recordings were made for a documentary on the Lennons and for the Playboy interview. Listen!
Engineered by Michael Barbiero at Studio One
Mastered by Greg Calbi at Sterling Sound
A portion of the profits from "Heart Play" is
to be donated to Spirit Foundation,
1 W. 72nd st. New York, New York 10023
Insert:
YOKO ONO
NEW YORK
UNFINISHED DIALOGUE
SECTION ONE
John talks about what Double Fantasy and Milk & Honey meant to us, John and Yoko. "This is just a beginning". That's how we felt.
SECTION TWO
A revolutionary, funny and honest account of a rocker's experience as a house-husband and a father, and his sympathy for housewives through his experience. "Sean is my biggest pride", he says with a sweet lull in his voice I remember well, expressing man's tenderness.
SECTION THREE
John is happy and proud that, at forty, songs still flow out of him with ease. It was especially true in 1980. He felt that the songs were given to him from above and said a quick thank you, thank you, thank you, whenever he was inspired with a song.
SECTION FOUR
Break-up with the Beatles and his constant pursuit of spiritual freedom through-out his life. That's John.
SECTION FIVE
Our meeting at Indica Gallery and after. He makes some insightful comments on men and women relationships which may be useful to other couples.
SECTION SIX
The Beatles, John and Yoko, and how "the world had it all wrong". His voice just barely hides his anger and pain of isolation and the struggle we went through for over ten years with the world, as a couple, artists, and as two people.
SECTION SEVEN
"The future is ours to see". He goes on to Gandhi and Martin Luther King. "What does it mean when you're such a pacifist that you get shot? I can never understand that". We hear "Woman" playing in the background and John's voice singing "I love you" as I'm trying to say, "It wasn't so bad, you know". This is not theatre, this is life - it happened while we were busy doing something else. Somebody up there must have thought that I could take all this, but nobody told me there'd be days like these. John is funny, quick and wise throughout the record. That's just John. He had so much to say, so much to share. He was genuinely concerned about the human race and believed that we will someday "get there".
Thank you, John, for a beautiful life together.
Love,
Yoko Ono
8172381 Y1
Heart Play Side One.
Lenght: 21:05.
JOHN: The theme is the dialog between a man and a woman, which is what it is and this album is part 1 of at least 2. That's for sure. And we were originally calling it an Ear Play.
YOKO: Heartplay.
JOHN: Yeah, it went to Heartplay but still contains the word "ear", meaning apart from the, we hope, popular kind of music on it which we like. There's also a theme running through it, and it's also a story. It's a story with not much description, just dialogue. You know those kind of movies? [laughs] Or a radio play, you know, they can't afford to have too much description and long panning shots along the shore and down to the little house on the beach. You just go, on the radio you just hear "shh, shh, shh, shh" and they start talking. We've done 22 songs, basic tracks. So then it was like having a movie, a lot of movie films or like the way they film two movies and it was a matter of which scene started where and which scene works with the next one. There's been a lot of shuffling around, as you can imagine.
JOHN: I was used to working with other people, but not with women you know.
YOKO: But not with a woman who was a wife as well. Totally different scene, and this time around for some reason, we sort of regained our respect for each other suddenly and maybe through this sort of...
JOHN: I also think this album is just like it's... it's just like the beginning. I think we've got some interesting spaces to go to because we worked together before in many different ways, but still I always had that sort of vague attitude that I was... I was the One. "I know all about this business and I know what a backbeat is," right? Well, now I know that she knows all about this business and she knows what a backbeat is and et cetera [Yoko laughing in background] and I think this is like the first piece of work we've really done together, and for my part, I just know I will even be more wholeheartedly emerged in working with her in the future, because of the experience of doing this album.
You see, in the early days when we were recording together I was having great fun because she was so 'freeform' but when the engineers would talk, Yoko would say, because she's trained musically and I'm not going to go through her list of qualifications 'cause it sounds like I'm promoting her, I don't have to but she knows, she's trained as a musician. Since birth! So when she would say to an engineer in 1968, even though it was a freeform jam, "I'd like a little more treble, a little more bass." or "there's too much of that whatever you're putting on that." they'd say: “What did you say, John?" Now, women are conscious of that now and it's talked about a lot but those days, I didn't even notice it myself and she'd say: "Didn't you notice that when I talk to them, they answer you as if I haven't spoken!" Now I know what she's talking about, especially it's happened to me in Japan, too. Because in Japan, even though I'm well known there, she's the queen of Japan, you know? When they talk in Japan and I say, you know: "A cup of tea, please," in Japanese. They say: "He wants a cup of tea?" to her in Japanese. [All laugh] and so I really know what she's talking about now, but she'd been getting it a long time from engineers and anybody around us. So I really understand it now, not only as a feminist issue, but as a being the 'Other', you know? and there's no more of the 'Other' now.
YOKO: When two get it together there is nothing you can't do. So it's as a power it is very strong. But of course John has a different - I mean he can't help it, with his different history from mine - he's a man and all that, so, he has different dreams, and I have a different dream too. When it happens it's really powerful. But sometimes, two people might be praying but at the same time secretly thinking about something else or what ever, and then it doesn't happen. So, that's sort of unified wishing or praying you know is something that doesn't happen that simply.
JOHN: Well, that shows in the album too because what's happening is instead of, the consciousness is to "let's see what future, or what we," to use a term prayer, "what we shall pray for together. Let's make it stronger by picturing the same image, projecting the same image." And that is the secret.
YOKO: In the Fantasy, of course, in the fantasy world, and you think about fantasy as separate from reality, but fantasy is almost like the reality which is to come, you know. So, in that fantasy world, of course, somebody like George Orwell would have created in 1984. Which is the general trend of the male species, I think, up to now.
JOHN: Hup, Hup. He coughs. [Laughter] Yeah. I agree with that and that's what she told me since we met.
DAVID: Interesting.
JOHN: That's why. I said it badly this afternoon.
YOKO: But you know like H.G. Wells, you know, and all that people saying "Incredible what they said happened." Of course, it's not prophecy, it's like a form of prayer. And you know.
JOHN: What do they call it, "wish fulfilment?"
DAVID: Right.
JOHN: The other day there was another quote, remember I showed it to you? The guy had predicted which World War, the Third World War and where it would happen, and they're saying "Oh, look, it's happening just like he said." And our game, or whatever it is, has always been, when they say, "what is John and Yoko doing? Doing Bed-ins?” We used to say well we want to do a commercial for peace on the front pages of the papers instead of a commercial for war. And the reporters go "Uh huh. Yea. Sure." But it didn't matter what the reporters said because our commercial went out irrespective. I mean, they were saying funny things about us but that wasn't the point the commercial went out anyway.
It was more important to face ourselves and face that reality. Then to continue a life of rock and roll showbiz and either go up and down with the winds of either your own performance or the public's opinion of you.
YOKO: Because you can become a stereotype of yourself [Laughs]. And that’s one thing we didn’t want to be also in a way and a lot of other stuff.
JOHN: And also, I must add, I found myself in a position where, for whatever reason, I always considered my self an artist, or musician, or whatever you want to call it, poet, or, that type of person and the so-called "pain of the artist" was always paid for by the freedom of the artist and the idea of being a rock and roll musician sort of suited my talents and mentality. And the freedom was great. But then I found I wasn't free. I'd got boxed in. It wasn't just because of a contract. But the contract was a physical manifestation of being in prison. And that I might as well have gone to a 9 to 5 job, just carry on the way I was carrying on. I just got myself boxed in. And there's two ways to go. You either go, what I term “going to Vegas", you know, and singing any great hits, if you're lucky, or going to hell, dying. Actually, literally dying.
YOKO: When I was in the art world the things that I really despised about male artists was that it was like a setup. Like they would get one tiny idea, you know like alright "I'm an artist who draws circle", then he sticks to that and that becomes his label. He gets a gallery who would promote that and that's his life. And next year he'll do triangles or something. It's such a poverty of ideas, and it doesn't reflect his life at all and continue doing that for maybe ten years or something, people start realize you are someone who continued ten years. Then you might get prize or something [laughs] and it such a ridiculous sort of routine.
JOHN: When you get the big prize is when you get cancer and you've been drawing circles and triangles for 20 years.
YOKO: And then die, right.
JOHN: The biggest is one when you die. They give you pretty a big one for dying in public. Ok. Those are the things we are not interested in doing. That's why we ended up doing things like Bed-ins and she ended up doing things like pop music, whereas she'd come from this avant-garde field, and I'd come from the straight rock field. Well the first attempt at our being together and producing things together was like "Two Virgins" albums and the events we did whether they were Bed-ins or posters, or whatever the events or films and things we did then, which is what we crossed over into each other's fields. Like people do from country to pop. We did it from avant-garde, leftfield from rock and roll leftfield. We tried to find a ground that was interesting to both of us and we both got excited and stimulated by each other's experiences. We wanted to know what could we do together because we want to be together. We want to work together. We don't want to just be together on weekends. We want to be together and live and work together. So the first attempts were the Bed-ins, and because that was, that was the period too. "What can we do together." We did that together. We attempted a few times to make music together but that was a long time ago and people still had this idea "The Beatles" were some kind of sacred thing that shouldn't step outside of its circle and it was hard for us work together then. We think that either people have forgotten or they have grown up by now and it’s we'll make a second foray into that place where she and I are together and not some wondrous mystic prince from the rock and roll world dabbling with this strange oriental woman.
The other question people are going to ask is: "Why do it with Yoko?" Or "Why Yoko do it with me?" Which will be a question, maybe, in a year or two [chuckles] But let's say they ask: "Why do it together?" Because together is the only way that it is fun!
YOKO: We are just a normal couple. Normal, What is normal? We are just another couple. The things that John are saying are things that I am saying. I think that all men and woman are feeling but the only difference is that we're saying them... So there is nothing new in the album in that sense. Everything that's said is an age old feeling that we had. But the only difference is that we are not afraid of those feelings and we didn’t kill the feelings.
JOHN: Walking away is much harder than carrying on. Because I know, because I've done both. I hadn't stopped since '62, or 3 till '73. On demand, on schedule continuously. It was very hard because one always had that thing "Well one 'ought to, I'm supposed to, shouldn't I be going." You know like, quotes, "to the office." Or producing something because therefore I don't exist if my name isn't in the papers, or if I don't have a record out or in the charts, or whatever or not is seen at the right... whatever the game is. It must be like the guys at 65 where somebody comes and goes [knocks three times] "Your life's over. Time for golf." It's self-imposed, yes. But still the feeling was still there. Suddenly there's this whole big space that seems to be un-fillable. And of course, naturally it got filled because that's the law of the universe, leave a space and something will fill it and it was filled by a fulfilling experience, to put it in a little cute phrase.
YOKO: When John and I go out they will say to John, "What are you doing now?" but they never ask me because women are not supposed to be doing anything [laughs].
JOHN: Well, I would say "I'm baking bread." and they'd say "Ha, ha. What are you really doing?" I'd say "Well, I'm looking after the baby." "No, no, but what else do you do?" I'd say "Are you kidding?" There were no secret projects in the basement because bread and babies, as every housewife everywhere knows, is a full time job and there ain't no space.
And I got into cooking a little and I used to say to Yoko after I made these loaves I felt I conquered something. That bit about if there wasn't a mommy or daddy to feed me I'd have to open a can of tuna or something. So I broke through that barrier and I watched the bread being eaten and I thought "Well Jesus! I don't get a gold record, a knighthood or nothing!?" You know. I recalled all the jokes and clichés about women and about them saying that the rewards of, and they had such a tremendous responsibility to see that the baby has the right amount of food and not overeat, and gets the right amount of sleep. Because ain't nobody else going to do it for him. No nanny, if you can afford nannies. Maybe a grandmother in the old days when the family was more extended than nuclear. But if I, as the housemother for that period, had not attended to when he slept and when he didn't and still I get Toshi to call from the studio to make sure that's he's getting in the bath by 7:30 because his nanny is beautiful and loving but she just forgets what time it is and he gets extended and bags under his eyes, and he gets tired, and he gets exposed to colds and flu. And I can't switch off from here and it's a tremendous responsibility, and now I understand the frustration of those women because there is no knighthood. There is no gold clock.
There is a great satisfaction. I took a polaroid photograph of my first loaf. I [Yoko laughs] I was overjoyed. I was that excited by it. I couldn't believe it. It was like an album coming out the oven. The instantness of it was great. And when they first ate a meal of mine, I was thrilled and then when I would, I ended up cooking for the staff, I was so in to it [Yoko laughs], so thrilled with it. That they would all be, there were about 8 seats, people in the corner, and every day I was cooking lunch for the staff, drivers, office boys, anybody who was working with us. "Come on up." I love it. Then it was beginning to wear me out. I thought "What's this? Screw this for a laugh!" [Yoko laugh] I'd make two loaves on Friday. They'd be gone by Saturday afternoon. The thrill was wearing off. It became the routine again. So the joy is still there when I see Sean. He didn't come out my belly, but my God, I made his bones because I've attended to every meal, and how he sleeps, and the fact that he swims like a fish is because I took him to the Y, I took him in the ocean. I'm so proud of all those, he is my biggest pride. You see? But you're talking to a guy who was not interested in children at all before Sean.
I don’t any hankering to be looked upon as a sex object, male rock and roll singer. I enjoy to look good and I like to be attractive and I enjoy the macho part of rock but I don't have any need to be the idol, and have people think that I just snap my fingers and teenyboppers come crawling in my bed, and that's the way life is, because it ain't like that and I don't want it to be like that. That's for maybe for younger guys who are just starting in the business and saying, "Oh, good, golden groupies" [Yoko laughs], and that's how it is. I got over that a long, long, time ago. I'm interested in ourselves, the family and making some music and trying to make something that we are proud of and that other people, then other people can make a choice of whether they want it or don't want it, or what to make of it, and what does it mean and we'll have all the fun of that. I'm not interested in being a sex symbol, or coming on as some big raunchy guy that drops one woman, picks up another the whole bit. I’m not interested in that. I'm not interested in even projecting that. I'd like it to be known that yes, she kicked me out [Yoko laughs] and it took a long time to get back in. And yes, I looked after the baby, and I made the bread, and I was a house husband. Let them understand that I'm proud of it. It was an enlightening experience for me because it was a complete reversal of my whole upbringing. It's the wave of the future, you know, and I'm glad to be in on the forefront of that too.
No the thing of feeling that one did not... was not justified in being alive unless one was fulfilling other people's dreams whether they were contractual dreams or dreams about the "public" fulfilling their dreams or fulfilling my own dreams and illusions about what I thought I was supposed to be, which in retrospect turned out to be not what I am - that's what I was saying about I've lost the initial freedom of the artist by becoming enslaved to the image of the artist of what the artist is supposed to do and a lot of artists kill themselves because of it, you know, whether it be through drink, like a Dylan Thomas or through insanity, like another artist, like a Van Gough, or anybody you know or VD and craziness like Gaughan, you know? Painting a picture for his child which he never spent any time with, you know, trying to create a masterpiece to give to the child, but meanwhile the child dies and anyway, he gets VD and the masterpiece burns down. It's burnt to the ground and even had it survived, better he should have stayed with the kid, that was the conclusion I came to.
DAVID: Why were you able to see that and most people don't. Most people would've gone on and did the next album and...
JOHN: Most people don't live with Yoko Ono. That's the main difference. Or don't have a companion who will tell you the truth and refuse to live with a bullshit artist, which I am pretty damn good at, you know, bullshitting myself and everybody 'round, and she maybe we do it for each other. But I can, that's my answer.
Here we are. I'm going to be 40. Sean's going to be 5. Isn't it great. We survived. He survived his 5 years. I am going to be 40 and life begins at 40, so they promise [David laughs]. Oh, I believe it too. Because I feel fine. I'm like excited. It's like 21. You know, hitting 21. It's like "Wow! What's going to happen?" It suddenly all came through me like that in the form of song. Although it must have been in my mind somewhere or other, all these...
YOKO: So the songs are really inspired songs. You know, I mean...
JOHN: There isn't one where I had to sit down and sort of try to make a dovetail joint and I can't imagine how people are going to take it, actually. I have a hopeful wish, prayer, fulfilment that they will take it in the spirit that it is given, which is with love and a lot of sweat, and life's experience of two people.
Heart Play Side Two.
Lenght: 20:51.
JOHN: I was looking to I was too scared to break away from the Beatles, but I'd been looking to it since '65 when we stopped touring and, I'm - maybe Paul had too, I don't know. I can't speak for the others. - But, I made a movie "How I Won the War" with Dick Lester which never got much seen, but it did me a lot of good. Well, it did me a lot of good to get away, and it was a withdrawal. I was in Almira, Spain. I wrote "Strawberry Fields" there by the way. But I was there 6 weeks, and it gave me time to think and sort of and to be separate from the others but still be working and not left in the house alone. And I used to think, well, you know, like a lot of people do: "Well, what can I do? If I don't do that and, so, from '65 on I was sort of vaguely looking for somewhere to go but didn't have the nerve to really step out in the boat by myself, push the boat off. So I sort of hung around and when I met and fell in love, "My GOD! this is different from anything before this is something other you know, this is well I don't know what it is, but this is fine [chuckle] this is Thank you, thank you!" you know. It's more than a hit record. It's more than gold, it's more than everything it's more than. This is something indescribable! And so that's what happened, you know, we just got so self-involved that I did free myself physically from the Beatles but not mentally. Mentally, I was still carrying them around. In the back, back, back of the head, although the initial love thing blinds everything. Everything is under shining lights, and you want everybody to be happy just like you, and it's you know, it's rather dizzying. Later on the love is different and one can slow down a little. It's not less it's just different and so therefore I could lift out all this garbage that was still being carried around which was influencing the way I thought and the way I lived, and all the rest of it. And then finally free myself from the, the mental, let's call it, Beatles, or '60's, or whatever it was. So the first one was a physical escape. and The second one was a mental escape. You know, "When are they coming back?" and "When are they going to do this?" and "What do you think of Paul?" and "What do you think of George?" I don't think!
"That old gang of mine..." That's all over, you know. When I met Yoko is when you meet your first woman, and you leave the guys at the bar, and you don't go play football anymore, and you don't go play snooker or billiards. Maybe some guys like to do it every Friday night, or something, and continue that relationship with the boys, but once I found the woman, the boys became of no interest whatsoever other than they were like old school friends, you know, "Hi, how are you? Nice to see you. How's your wife?" You know. That's it. That old gang of mine, it's all over. You know that song, "Those wedding bells are breaking up that old gang of mine." Well, it didn't hit me 'til whatever age I was when I met Yoko, which was 26. 1966 I met but the full impact didn't we didn't get married 'til '68, was it? It all blends into one big movie, but whatever, that was it! The old gang was over the moment I met her, I didn't consciously know it at the time but that's what was going on. As soon as I met her, that was the end of the boys! And it just so happened the boys were well known and weren't just the local guys at the bar. These were guys that everybody else knew, but it was the same thing. That's all over for that but then everybody got so upset about it and angry! But we were so involved in each other we just went and made the records and did sort of Bed-ins and we blasted our way through it!
YOKO: I just sort of you know, went to bed with this guy that I liked and suddenly the next morning I see these three guys standing with these resentful eyes, you know, I mean three relatives, suddenly appeared, you know. So it was inconvenient for me too.
JOHN: Not the bloody Beatles. Let's have no more Beatles, Christianity or Bob Dylan, okay? Let's make that a, because it all becomes the same thing, right.
Her Indica Gallery show was like meeting Don Juan, you know. At first I didn't realize who I was meeting but because I got the initial game, I played the initial game right, is the reason we connected, about the breathing and the apple and the "Yes" and the conceptual money and the nails and all that. Because I said the right answers, I got in. Whatever the right - like you know, the Zen Koan? Well it's the same thing, you know. There're many answers.
DAVID: You make it sound almost like a teacher-pupil relationship.
LENNON: It is a teacher-pupil relationship. That's what people don't understand. She's the teacher and I'm the pupil. I'm the famous one. I'm the one that's supposed to know everything, but she's my teacher. She's taught me everything I fucking know. The lessons are damned hard and I can't take it sometimes because those lessons are hard and that's why I'm the one that freaked out. When we were separate it was me making an asshole of myself in the clubs and in the newspapers. It wasn't her. Her life was ordered. She missed me as a human being and she loved me, but her life was ordered. I went back to her life, it wasn't the other way around.
YOKO: I think that love will never die. I mean once you know somebody you can never unknow the person. If they are not afraid of love then they are always going to love. It's alright to be afraid. That's what I am saying in this song "don't be afraid to be afraid". Don't be shy, don't be scared, you know, it's all that.
JOHN: Your asking me why we met? You know, I mean, I don't know, it's like asking why were you born? You know, I mean, I can give you theories of Karmic pasts and things like that, but I've no idea why but why it continues because is we wanted it to continue and worked hard to continue and what I was getting to, the point where, there seems to be certain cycles that relationships go through, and the critical points are at different parts of the, different cycle, you now, different points if there's a straight line, at different points, you know? And the sort of bit, the new way of talking is like, well, you know, why have a relationship, we just stop and get another one. But the Karmic joke about that is, that, any new relationship - presuming you're lucky enough to find a new relationship of anywhere near the relationship that you're giving up, or exchanging, or walking away from, or have destroyed by inattention or inadvertence or selfishness or whatever it is, that you have to go through the same thing again, anyway you reach the same point, and that's why some of the poor dingbats in, in my business or in so called "show business", go through it over and over and over again, right up 'til they're 70 because they can never grasp onto the fact that they're going to have to go through the same thing again, and they get to the sort of, the 5-year stretch, or the 7-year stretch, or whatever these tension points are that seem to be organic. Built in, like the tide coming in and out. When I was kicked out on a raft in the middle of the universe, I realised where I was, which was on a raft in the middle of the universe, and that whatever happened presuming I could have started another relationship, would have ended up in the same place if I was lucky. If, big If!
DAVID: Yeah, to get to that point.
JOHN: To get to the same point again. It's like they say about karma, You have to come back and go through that thing again if you don't get it right this lifetime. Well, those laws that are sort of "cosmically" talked about accepted or not accepted, but you know the ones they all talk about they're all referring to they apply down to the minutest detail of life, too. It's like, Instant Karma, which is my way of saying it's right. You know, it happens about a cup of coffee or anything. It's not just some big cosmic thing, it's that as well, but it's also the small things like your life here and your relationship with the with the person you want to live with and be with there are laws governing that relationship, too. And you can either give up halfway up the hill, and say "I don't want to climb this mountain. It's too tough or I'm going to go back to the bottom and start again." And well, we were lucky enough to go through that, and come back and pick up where we left off although. It took us some kind of energy to blend in again, and get in the same sync again.
YOKO: We're not always smiling. We have arguments and all that too.
JOHN: No we don't! [Everyone laughs]
YOKO: It’s natural. We're very fiery kind of people, you know. John is such a hot tempered person.
JOHN: No, I'm not! [laughter]
I have a few moments do you mind if I - I want to come in for a rest.
YOKO: No, no, please join, it's great because we're talking how beautiful the world is, and it's true.
JOHN: Well, today it is. Yesterday it was terrible. So what the hell, you know. You know, it's...
YOKO: But if it's a terrible day, it's not. You know I think life
JOHN: If it was really bad, we'd kill ourselves. So it can never be that bad.
JOHN: Yoko steals my lyrics for what reason, I’ve no idea.
YOKO: I don't steal it, I'm just.
JOHN: Well, I mean, I had a complete set all neatly.
YOKO: If they're not with you, you have it there and I.
JOHN: No, no they were all in my bag, you just took them.
YOKO: You want me to look for it? Which one do you want?
JOHN: I want Beautiful Boy, that’s all. I know them by heart, but I feel better if I can see it, you know, when I open my eyes and sing, I just see the words in front of me.
Nobody controls me. I'm uncontrollable. The only one that can control me is me and that's just barely possible but that's what life is about. And that's the lesson I'm learning.
If somebody's gonna impress me, whether it be a Maharishi or a Janov or a Yoko, then there comes a point where the emperor has no clothes because I'm - I do stupid things, I've done stupid things, I'm naive but I'm also not stupid. So there comes a point where I will see, you know, nobody can pull the wool that long. So for all you folks out there who think that I'm having the wool pulled over my eyes, well that's an insult to me. Not that you think less of Yoko, because that's your problem what you think of Yoko. What I think of her is what counts. But if you think you know me or your have some part of me because of the music, and then you think that I'm being controlled like a dog on a leash because I do things with her, then screw you! Because you know fuck you brother or sister, you don't know what's happening. I'm not here for you, I'm here for me and her and now the baby.
YOKO: You see another thing is, of course it's a total insult to me because....
JOHN: Well you're always insulted my dear, It's natural.
YOKO: You know, I don't even bother to control anybody because I mean, why should I? You know
JOHN: She doesn't need me.
YOKO: You know, I have my own life, right.
JOHN: She doesn't need a Beatle.
YOKO: And also if I'm a con....
JOHN: [laughter] Who needs a Beatle...
YOKO: I mean nobody can be that much of a con because, I mean look, Maharishi lasted, what? two months or something, you know, right? So then I must be the biggest con in the world because I was with him 13 years, you know, right?
JOHN: I don't think anybody should be that interested in every detail of my life from Beatles to now, but anybody who claims to have some interest in me as an individual artist or even as part of the Beatles has absolutely misunderstood everything I ever said if they can't see why I'm with Yoko and if they can’t see that they don't see anything. They’re just jacking off to, it could be anybody Mick Jagger or somebody else. Let them go and Jerk off to Mick Jagger Okay? I don’t need it.
DAVID: He’ll appreciate that…
JOHN: I absolutely don’t need it. Let them chase Wings, you know. Just forget about me. If that’s what you want, go after Paul and Mick. I ain’t here for that. Go play with the rolling wings. But no, can we get back to this other stuff just a second like you do sometimes I can't let go of it? Because nobody ever said anything about what Paul having a spell over me when I was with him for a long time or me having a spell over Paul. They didn’t think that was abnormal, two guys together, or four guys together, in those days, why didn't anybody ever say, "How come those guys don't split up, I mean what's going on backstage? I mean what is that, you know, Paul and John business? You know, how can they be together so long." We spent more time together than John and Yoko in the early days, the four of us sleeping in the same room, practically in the same bed, in the same truck, alright? Doing everything together nobody said a damn thing about being under the spell. Maybe they said we were under the spell of Brian Epstein or George Martin. There's always somebody that has to be doing something to you. We're the ones that cast the spells.
YOKO: The guys are alright somehow, you know.
JOHN: Yeah, the boys alright, but you go with a woman, its something abnormal
DAVID: It is a twist, boy.
JOHN: Yeah
YOKO: It's a twist and a half isn't it?
DAVID: How funny.
JOHN: So, you know, I just wanted to finish that one off with that because, Jesus, nobody ever says it, you know.
DAVID: That’s true, that’s so strange
JOHN: You know they’re congratulating the stones on being together 112 years, Whoopee! [laughs] Whoopee! At least Charlie and Bill have still got their fans.
That seems to be the karmic trick, or cosmic joke #9 that we can't just sit back and say,"Will of Allah" because we know the Universe is breathing in and out, therefore we're gonna get Hitler then Christ, then Hitler then Christ to use those two again, which because they're just convenient. It's not a matter of sitting back and waiting for Christ or accepting Hitler. We have to do something. But whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen anyway as well. Both at the same time.
YOKO: Well, whatever is gonna happen is an amalgamation of all of us.
JOHN: Yeah, right. Que sera, sera but we're responsible.
YOKO: We are, exactly.
JOHN: The future is ours to see. You see, that's the only line I'd change in the beautiful song. Yeah, if we can't see it, ain't nobody gonna see it for us. [exaggerated]
The idea of leadership is a false god. If you want to use the Beatles or John and Yoko, people are expecting us to do something for them for them. That's not what's going to happen because they are the ones that didn't understand any message that came before anyway. And they are the ones that will follow Hitler or follow the Rev. Moon or whatever. Following is not what it's about, but leaving messages of "this is what's happening to us. Hey, what's happening to you?" Sending postcards and letters is what we do. And that's different. You see? I think the idea of leadership is the old Judeo-Christian idea of the separateness of God/It/Her/She from us, as being outside us, the Other. We are the Other, there is only one. So therefore people kind of expect more from us than they expect from themselves. And that message was pretty apparent in the Beatles positive "All You Need Is Love" period, through the "Give Peace A Chance", "Bed-in", "War Is Over If You Want It", "Hard Times Are Over For A While". It's the same thread is there. But it is not somebody standing up saying "Follow me because this is how it is." It ain't like that. I am, and she is, only part of, we're all in the same boat. And therefore
YOKO: We're just a reflection of each other.
JOHN: We don't feel the responsibility and we don't take the responsibility for other people's lives. We take responsibility for the whole thing because we are all responsible for the whole thing.
Somebody comes along with a good piece of truth and instead of the truth being looked at, the person that brought it - it's like when the bad news comes, they shoot the messenger. When the good news comes, they worship the messenger and they don't listen to the message, whether it be Christianity, Mohammadism, Buddhism, Confusciousism, Marxism, Maoism, everything. It's always about the person and never about what they said.
YOKO: You see people like to personalise things, you know people even personalise God. When you say God. Most people think about this old man with white beard or something, they don’t think god is an essence or anything.
JOHN: They don't know it's an old woman with a beard do they? [Laughter]
Well, you make your own dream [laughs]. That's the Beatles' story, isn't it? That's Yoko's story. That's what I'm saying now. Produce your own dream. If you want to save Peru, go and save Peru. It's quite possible to do anything, but not to put it on leaders and parking meters. Don't expect Carter or Reagan or John Lennon or Yoko Ono or Bob Dylan or Jesus Christ to come and do it for you. You have to do it yourself. That's what the great Masters and Mistresses have been saying ever since time began. They can point the way, leave sign posts and little instructions in various books that are now called holy and worshipped for the cover of the book and not what it says. But the instructions are all there for all to see, have always been and always will be. There's nothing new under the sun. All roads lead to Rome and people cannot provide it for you. I can't wake you up. You wake you up. I can't cure you. You cure you.
YOKO: Well, I like to daydream a lot you know. I mean, that's what I do anyway, and that that takes me to places where I want to go. So, John and I will probably daydream a lot and then think of the next project.
JOHN: Ghandi and Martin Luther King are great examples of fantastic non violents who died violently. I can't ever work that out. We're pacifists, but I'm not sure it's always that... but What does it mean when you're such a pacifist that you get shot. I can never understand that.
YOKO: Well, we had let's say that despite it all, we had a good life.
DAVID: Yea.
YOKO: And I think life is beautiful, and I enjoyed it. And I am enjoying it. And I think he would, too. So there's that feeling. In that sense, maybe I'm an endless optimist, but I don't think of those - well people thinking, "oh well, you know, the world is going to end very soon, in 1984, so don't have children," I think that through optimism, a lot of children are going to just maybe stop 1984.
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